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  1. #21
    Senior Member Grid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich99 View Post
    "Daily Average" A few yrs ago someone in here (can't remember who) mentioned that most casinos use a daily average of coin in to determine comps.
    He also said the next day usually begins around 4am. He cautioned that peeps that are staying over night weather it be one night or longer to not use their players club card on check out day. His reasoning was most peeps only play for an hour or two after or just before they check out which will result in lowering their daily average for the entire stay...
    Is this or was this true?
    Not that @Warren didnt do a spot on job with this. But the above was "old" math. Within the past 5 or so years many casinos went to "Trip" and not "Daily" average. Why? So they could rate you less without reworking the math model and to encourage you to spend the checkout day with them as well.

    I hated it once Mlife switched to "Trip" since my trips are always short with them. If you spend 1 night on a comp, your rated play is cut in half. $10K of coin-in on the slots that night is rated at $5K per day on a trip if you do not play on checkout. And your value as a $5K per day player is that much lower for return comps. Smart for them, bad for you.

    If you stay longer, the math is not that bad. $10K a day on a 4 night trip is $10K per day the old way and $8K per day as a new "trip" average (counting check out as a day. So just a 20% cut to what it should be. And easiliy made up if you actually gamble on that check out day.

    Mind you, the above is only true if they know you. IE you are drawing a comp. If you take that free room, each day attached to it is part of a trip. Doesnt matter if you check out at 2AM the last day or 2PM the same. You took a room out of inventory for that day and you are on the clock win lose or draw.
    Last edited by Grid; 08-27-2018 at 02:43 PM.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Grid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren View Post
    I would disagree about the time factor on slot machines, but hear me out.

    In the old days in slots and still today in table games, time was/is certainly a factor in player ratings. Once casinos gained the ability on slot machines to measure the exact number and size of wagers (through the player's card), looking at time becomes pretty much irrelevant. The casino is looking at how much the player is worth which is calculated by theoretical losses (amount wagered X theo hold) and/or actual losses. So, if you generate $1,000 of coin in on 10% machines, your theoretical value is $100 to the casino. It won't (well, shouldn't) matter whether it takes you an hour to generate that or four hours.

    With table games, it is still uncommon to have the ability to track every wager. Due to this time is always a factor in the player ratings. There are systems that use RFID chips and those can help the accuracy of player ratings a great deal, but we still don't have complete systems in any sort of wide use that track all bets and all game outcomes to the same level of accuracy that we've had on slot machines for the last 20 or more years.

    In my experience I've never heard of time being used as a factor in rewarding slot players for any casino that uses a real-time or "online" player card system. (In the old days we did have off-line systems where you'd have a player's card but you didn't insert it into the machines. You simply handed it to the club rep who would come by every 30 minutes or so, swipe your card, and add points based on what denom you were playing)

    That's not to say it has never happened or isn't happening anywhere. It could be. If so, I'd love to hear the logic behind it.
    Warren, love your posts on here! I agree "if you generate $1,000 of coin in on 10% machines, your theoretical value is $100 to the casino. It won't (well, shouldn't) matter whether it takes you an hour to generate that or four hours" that is to say both players are playing the same game with the same holds at the same bet level. I'm saying two players both playing a penny game with the same holds. Player 1 is playing $1.00 per spin for 5 hours and player 2 is playing $5.00 max bet for 1 hour. Player 1 is more valuable. Gary Loveman has shown many instances of player tendencies. Those that win big sooner are more likely to play shorter and leave up. Those that bleed longer are more likely to play until the money is gone. The player that plays longer (Mrs $1.00 for 5 hours) has a better chance of losing her bankroll then the player that bets bigger for a shorter session.

    Both rated 100% the same in your above. But clearly one holds a better expected value to the casino.

    I run a stupid gambling blog that allows me access and interviews in the major markets I cover. Chicago, Atlantic City and Las Vegas. I have yet to get a clean answer from anyone in regards to the logistics of time on device beyound what I already wrote in this thread. That a player that plays longer is more valuable then those that play higher and leave sooner. The obvious reason I gave was allowing the house average to catch up and the players penchant for replaying any short term wins.

    Not sure what systems you are running at your place, but I know of many that are running SAS Forecast servers or programs like Slot Focus & Praxis player analytics. The bean counters can now apply a real value to a player beyond coin-in & denom played for comp returns.

    These little plastic club cards we all carry show the big picture. Are we dining on property, seeing any shows, shopping in the stores (that offer a discount or something for showing the card) or just any other information that can be pulled to see how much we actually spend during a visit. Is one person more inclined to use their buffet offers and only play during bonus points days?

    You know what we do in the casino. But if we do it longer, and face the odds against us, we are worth more. And if we spend more money in house during a trip then a player that is rated the same, we are then worth even more. All of these analytics can be used to see who gets marketed to or how aggressively they are targeted. It could, in theory, also dictate which player gets a room on a busy night. Since beyond ADT one player can and should hold a higher value over another.

    I'll be covering the Global Gaming Expo in a few weeks and I'm hoping to get more answers in regards to TOD. But it all really does make sense when you think about it. And if casinos weren't pulling all that extra info, all these analytic companies wouldn't exist.
    Last edited by Grid; 08-27-2018 at 03:02 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grid View Post
    Warren, love your posts on here! I agree "if you generate $1,000 of coin in on 10% machines, your theoretical value is $100 to the casino. It won't (well, shouldn't) matter whether it takes you an hour to generate that or four hours" that is to say both players are playing the same game with the same holds at the same bet level. I'm saying two players both playing a penny game with the same holds. Player 1 is playing $1.00 per spin for 5 hours and player 2 is playing $5.00 max bet for 1 hour. Player 1 is more valuable. Gary Loveman has shown many instances of player tendencies. Those that win big sooner are more likely to play shorter and leave up. Those that bleed longer are more likely to play until the money is gone. The player that plays longer (Mrs $1.00 for 5 hours) has a better chance of losing her bankroll then the player that bets bigger for a shorter session.

    Both rated 100% the same in your above. But clearly one holds a better expected value to the casino.

    I run a stupid gambling blog that allows me access and interviews in the major markets I cover. Chicago, Atlantic City and Las Vegas. I have yet to get a clean answer from anyone in regards to the logistics of time on device beyound what I already wrote in this thread. That a player that plays longer is more valuable then those that play higher and leave sooner. The obvious reason I gave was allowing the house average to catch up and the players penchant for replaying any short term wins.

    Not sure what systems you are running at your place, but I know of many that are running SAS Forecast servers or programs like Slot Focus & Praxis player analytics. The bean counters can now apply a real value to a player beyond coin-in & denom played for comp returns.

    These little plastic club cards we all carry show the big picture. Are we dining on property, seeing any shows, shopping in the stores (that offer a discount or something for showing the card) or just any other information that can be pulled to see how much we actually spend during a visit. Is one person more inclined to use their buffet offers and only play during bonus points days?

    You know what we do in the casino. But if we do it longer, and face the odds against us, we are worth more. And if we spend more money in house during a trip then a player that is rated the same, we are then worth even more. All of these analytics can be used to see who gets marketed to or how aggressively they are targeted. It could, in theory, also dictate which player gets a room on a busy night. Since beyond ADT one player can and should hold a higher value over another.

    I'll be covering the Global Gaming Expo in a few weeks and I'm hoping to get more answers in regards to TOD. But it all really does make sense when you think about it. And if casinos weren't pulling all that extra info, all these analytic companies wouldn't exist.
    Thanks Grid, that's very interesting...

    In my example, I'm saying that the number of spins remain constant, just over a different period of time. Spreading the same number of spins at the same bet level on the same hold game from 1 hour to 4 hours.

    If I'm following your example correctly (and also Merlot's host) you are saying that two different players (one playing high bets for short periods and one playing low bets for long periods) with the same overall theo loss are (or could be) rewarded or incented differently due to time played. That's certainly possible. Once you go beyond the typical basic forumulas and get into advanced Business Intelligence and Big Data, that's when things get really interesting! The Praxis product is both amazing and terrifying at the same time. Caesars has always seemed to be at the forefront of analytics (with teams of people from MIT among others) and I'm sure the other big companies are probably not far behind.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Grid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren View Post
    Thanks Grid, that's very interesting...

    In my example, I'm saying that the number of spins remain constant, just over a different period of time. Spreading the same number of spins at the same bet level on the same hold game from 1 hour to 4 hours.

    If I'm following your example correctly (and also Merlot's host) you are saying that two different players (one playing high bets for short periods and one playing low bets for long periods) with the same overall theo loss are (or could be) rewarded or incented differently due to time played. That's certainly possible. Once you go beyond the typical basic forumulas and get into advanced Business Intelligence and Big Data, that's when things get really interesting! The Praxis product is both amazing and terrifying at the same time. Caesars has always seemed to be at the forefront of analytics (with teams of people from MIT among others) and I'm sure the other big companies are probably not far behind.
    You bet Sir! And I agree about the amount of spins. If two players are both playing the same denom and bet size but one bets faster then the other = same rating. Even though one technically played for longer. He did not play "more" for longer. He just played slower.

    That is where TOD gets confusing when people talk about it. Time on Device is more or less a catchall for the scenario I described earlier.

    I know I am not very sexy to most casinos. I play mostly older mechanical slots that have historically had a better return. And I place higher bets for fewer hours. One of the reasons why I do not stay or play at the Venetian ( or Palazzo) in Las Vegas is due to the Sands Corp assigning points to true theo on machines. It helps you find the best returning games in the house, but you also earn fewer points if you play on a better returning slot. And they use that known math of who plays the better paying games more often, and figures it into your comp returns.

    I do not mind a blind club. Play $10 and get 5 points. 10 points = a nickle back. Doesnt matter what slot you play. Makes my life easier. Some clubs are brutal! I hate the stress of playing at Las Vegas MGM casinos and their two different definations of a "slot" when it comes to points.

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