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  1. #21
    Senior Member Slotspert's Avatar
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    My monthly offers across all the casinos is DOWN from the "generosity" of the prior years. That means that the casinos are able to attract what they are looking for. Add that to the fact that the machines are more of a frequent partial payback every other hit, or so, and you have, as an end result, the dynamic people are complaining about.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Random$$Slots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dannyboy View Post
    The older slots were capable of big multipliers. Not only were they capable, but top jackpots were won frequently. Red white blue top jackpot on a three coin bet paid 10000 coins(3333x). Double Diamond (800x) was not a very volitile slot. Even three mixed sevens on a red white blue paid 80x which was a frequent hit. Now a so called big win is 25x. I do not believe that volatility is the issue. The problem is the hold percentage of these greedy casinos. There is a huge differcence between a 90% quarter payback and the 75% payback most penny machines are paying.
    Red White & Blue is a "Stepper" slot from IGT. A Stepper uses computer controlled "stepper motors" to spin and stop the reels. While the plastic Strip on the reels has a couple of dozen symbols on each strip, the virtual reel has 64 stop positions that are mapped to the physical symbols. The top prize of 10,000 is awarded to one of the possible 264K virtual reel combinations. As such, Stepper games can be made fairly volatile.

    The mechanical slots I referred to are the pre-stepper machines that relied on mechanics to determine the odds of stopping on a particular symbol.

    Modern slots, stepper or video, are usually designs with payback % settings between about 85 to 98%. A few can go as low as in the 60s, but published percentages show that such machines are rare.
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  3. #23
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    but published percentages show that such machines are rare.

    And Hondas "published" issues were few as well, till they got nailed by the NTSB that is. Like I said before its not volatility to blame when even older IGTs, Konamis, WMS simply do not pay the way they did before let alone the same machines in LV we regularly hit on for bonuses which are 20X or more than the same machine at a local

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random$$$ View Post
    Modern slots, stepper or video, are usually designs with payback % settings between about 85 to 98%. A few can go as low as in the 60s, but published percentages show that such machines are rare.
    I just wonder how low the paybacks really are at the local Native American casinos. I know that some say 85%, but I think they are more like 75%.

  5. #25
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    The issue is not long term payback percentage as much as it is more a function of the billions of combinations in a modern machine's cycle to hit that long term number. If the long term RTP is comprised of a zillion possibilities, then in the short term ($500 betting 50 cents per spin), you will lose it all....period. You can thank TITO for that as well, allowing "penny" machines to pay back less than bet. Add in the ability to manipulate volatility without changing long term RTP, and as I said often, casinos and the manufacturers, aided by outdated regulations, have made everyone a loser and have taken the "luck" away from the formerly "lucky".

    You had better just enjoy pushing a button and watching a screen, wins do happen though. They have to. The odds have never been worse for the player.

    Just read the stories out of the Consumer Electronics convention this past week to see you will not turn back time. Our economic system depends on innovation, and for gambling machines---very bad for player, good for casinos.

    Shamus, Pete, I, and others went through this in 2009 on the old forum. If we can all agree that long term RTP (retiurn to player percentages) is worthless to the player in the (always) short term, that is a start. RTP only has relevant meaning to casino accountants and managers, and the ineffective regulations.

    As four fours and many others have said, you will still lose everything on a machine with billions of results in its life cycle, regardless of RTP.
    #68

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by inaminute01 View Post
    The issue is not long term payback percentage as much as it is more a function of the billions of combinations in a modern machine's cycle to hit that long term number. If the long term RTP is comprised of a zillion possibilities, then in the short term ($500 betting 50 cents per spin), you will lose it all....period. You can thank TITO for that as well, allowing "penny" machines to pay back less than bet. Add in the ability to manipulate volatility without changing long term RTP, and as I said often, casinos and the manufacturers, aided by outdated regulations, have made everyone a loser and have taken the "luck" away from the formerly "lucky".

    You had better just enjoy pushing a button and watching a screen, wins do happen though. They have to. The odds have never been worse for the player.

    Just read the stories out of the Consumer Electronics convention this past week to see you will not turn back time. Our economic system depends on innovation, and for gambling machines---very bad for player, good for casinos.

    Shamus, Pete, I, and others went through this in 2009 on the old forum. If we can all agree that long term RTP (retiurn to player percentages) is worthless to the player in the (always) short term, that is a start. RTP only has relevant meaning to casino accountants and managers, and the ineffective regulations.

    As four fours and many others have said, you will still lose everything on a machine with billions of results in its life cycle, regardless of RTP.
    This is the BEST explanation that I've ever heard on what's been going on in casino's. You hit the nail on the head Ray!

  7. #27
    Member islaguy's Avatar
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    At the end of the day, in a free country, consumers rule. We will prevail

  8. #28
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    I know here in Pennsylvania the recent year end report showed another decline in slot revenue. Only 2 of the 11 casinos showed any positive numbers (Lady Luck and Valley Forge). Here in western Pa I play mainly at the Meadows and they had one of largest drop offs of slot income and my $200 bankroll does not even last an hour with mid to low play. The article stated that Ohio, New York and Maryland casinos are having an impact, which in my opinion is a complete lie. The Meadows is notoriously tight and by the look of the crowds throughout the week and early weekend days people are slowing down their visits because the place is empty and many are realizing it is just not worth going there to only walk away with empty pockets. Oops and I forgot to add the weekly $5.00 free play they are known for giving even to Silver level players, bronze is the lowest level.

    Paman
    Last edited by Paman; 01-10-2015 at 01:03 PM.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Harry Lyme's Avatar
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    And thus my move to primarily tables and VP. The casino still holds the cards, but I feel like I have a fighting chance. However, I love my slots, but I get my fill from a $40 bankroll for them and low bets. I'm upping that this year with the vastly fewer trips (10 days in, no trips, with only an itch to do a BJ tourney), but I've always capped slot budgets at a hundy. I'll take the rest elsewhere.

  10. #30
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    Are there any casinos left that don't totally suck? Reno or something?

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